Capitol Hill Blue Forums We shall overcome

Rick, the point is that ideology, religion, and age are bigger problems (bigger divisions to solve) than race, but it was race that got slapped first, and hardest.

Some of us just kinda wondered at that.

I think there's a huge difference between what black people had to go through and what gay people go through in respect of civil liberties forgone.

While there has been a few incidents of violence against gay people, it doesn't even come close to the numbers of lynching that took place in USA.

But maybe if there were signs saying "gay people to the back of the bus" other people would feel your "pain" more.

No one has contended otherwise Kap17 to my knowledge. But the same can be said for many groups which have sought equal treatment under the law, otherwise knows as "civil rights."

What was your point, that gays should settle for less because they suffered less?

The point is that people (like rick) shouldn't say things like "I can't believe that black people didn't vote against prop 8 when they themselves fought for civil rights not too long ago" like they're suppose to fight for civil rights for everyone because people fought for their civil rights.

It's kinda like saying "come on guys.... we got you all these rights 50 years ago.. why can't you vote for our rights".

That's how I see comments like the one made by Rick. I could be wrong but that's how I see it.

Well, there is a certain logic to it, isn't there? Or are civil rights apportioned in some manner I didn't know about? Frankly after all the years and years of work, the number of times I put my life on the line for other groups, including African Americans, I was hoping for, if not expecting reciprocation.

see for me my efforts on their behalf were borne of a commitment to equality and justice for all, not some guilt or effort at reparations.

Guess I was wrong in your opinion.

civil rights is an all inclusive term. women's rights is specific; rights for descendants of specific ethnic groups is specific. civil rights are for everyone.

That's exactly how my comments should be interpreted - and why not?

...because it was the most obvious criteria to stick out.

Oh, well, as long as there's a sensible reason.

I don't think there's been much discussion of this so I'm going to throw it out there. It would be interesting to see a poll that finds out how many voters support civil rights for the gay community, but who do not see marriage as a civil right. The answer in the gay community is clear; the answer elsewhere, less so.

It would be interesting to know what the overlap is on those groups...that is, how many black voters voted for Prop 8 because, while they support civil rights for gays, they consider marriage to be a religious question, and not a civil right.

We've had many discussions here about whether marriage should be strictly religious, with the state uninvolved. I wonder how many people actually took the time to reason it out.

I wonder if Prop 8 had curtailed more traditional civil rights (like employment and housing rights) instead of marriage, if the support would have changed.

Mostly I still think there are a lot of assumptions here about who voted and why - and I think some of those assumptions are damaging, if they turn out to be wrong. I'm sure it sounds like I'm being picky with words - but if I support you in those rights I consider to be civil, that has value. That is a show of support, although not the support the gay community was looking for. It's a basis of mutual support, and it can be built upon - if, in fact, it exists.

You know, you can parse it as much as you want. Either you are for equal treatment of all or not. So please spare me the fine distinctions.